I used to run a Rock / Alternative night at Rainys oddly enough called Deviate (nothing to do with the club) and the smoking ban impact was obvious, from 40 to 50 people on a tuesday night to 5 or 6 within the space of a month after the ban. We continued til january this year when it just became pointless turning up and playing to no one. I still see a lot of the people who came up to the club and now they have nothing to do on a tuesday night (or any other nights that are not the weekend). The social impact of the ban and the credit crunch is enormous. Weve lost 2 clubs that cater to what is essentially a niche audience but where does that crowd go when there is nowhere left to go. What do they do when they cant meet like minded people - oh i know - watch TV and play video games - how boring. No social interaction, no money, no life, i suspect this is what our government has in mind for us all. What next - make it illegal to go outside for a cigarette or hammer peoples pockets so that a night out is unaffordable for everyone - You are the witness to the social decline and eventual destruction of British society and like good Brits we do nothing to stop it

What really annoys me is the people who fail to see that the smoking ban has had any impact on todays society. I was also a tuesday night regular at Raineys and I witnessed first hand the numbers of customers falling in droves. It didn't even take a month though, I think Sir Head is being generous with that estimation. I'm fed up of arguing my point with people so brainwashed that they refuse to listen to other peoples points of view so now I am reduced to commenting anonimously on things like this.

The shift to Westwood of retail outlets has been matched by casino, bingo, cinema, eating places and pub. On Saturday at Clarendon School you will find out that EKO LLP (aka TDC & KCC)have more ideas up their sleeves to kill off Margate in particular. What idiots like Latchford do not quite grasp, when they talk about £64 million being spent at Westwood is whether some of this income is re-circulated into the local economy by employing local trades to support the big retail chains. Sadly big chains tend to export most of this income outside Thanet and few local support businesses are used by them.This contrasts with small town businesses who rely on local supporting builders, electricians, shopfitters, plumbers etc. Has any one done a simple survey of employment at Westwood? A brief Q & A survey highlights the number of staff at Westwood who commute in from outside Thanet. More 'leisure' as proposed by Latchford and EKO LLP at Westwood will in time include a Thorley Tavern and thorley night club? Margate has lost its night life in addition to its shops and will slip into further decline. TDC Cabinet members fail to appreciate this as they accommodate their 'friends and acquaintances' with further 'business' opportunities.

From what I understand from Sir Head and Anon (as well as other sources) it seems that the culteral shift these laws have created have exposed a number of new problems. This is then added to by the lack of money people have available to spend.

I have always said that wht interested me most was the possible ways businesses would adapt to deal witht hese issues.

Here's my take on things.

1. People go outside to smoke. Then they go some where else. This is a shorter term problem that should eventually dwindle over time as smoking becomes a bother (that's the theory anyway).

This could be solved by creating night clubs with gardens or court yards perhaps. Actually that'd be pretty cool during the summer especially if drinking water were available there too.

2. People are not bothering to show up because "the mood" is gone. I'm tempted to think that my background in arts and theatre should be able to find a solution to this.

3. People are not drinking because it is too expensive. A radical solution to this could be to replace drinking as the focus (and money maker) of the event - I admit it's a bit of a hard sell but it would reduce costs. Slimelight (a goth/industrial venue) in London used to work sans bar and so sans license costs by being the venue only and visitors took their own drink with them. I'm not saying that is the answer but it does show that there are some interesting alternatives.

The three possibilities taken together open up the possibility of less expensive and more "interesting" venues.

I'm not trying to suggest that the night club scene is anything but hurting from the dual impact of enforced social changes and the credit crunch but I am speculating that between us we could come up with a crazy yet successful answer.

I wonder if this will happen or if things will first have to stagnate and die back further first.

What do you think?

Hello anon(2) - I can see your point about the hurt being laid on the social scene by westwood creating a new one however it ahs been my experience that this is slightly harder to pull off than with shopping. That said we bloggers are better than the press becuase of the speed with which we can move and innovate.

Perhaps the smarty members of the young business community can come up with some innovation that can work despite westwood?

Again qestions without answers.

As Matt B is probably aware i play in a couple of bands as well and its only been recently that the situation when at a gig, be it club/pub/venue, has improved. people have started to get the idea that you turn up for the first band or set, about ten to twenty mins beforehand get a beer and go for a smoke, then watch the band with more beer. 45 mins to an hour later band has finished and outside for a smoke again etc depending on how many bands or sets. It works when its not raining. More venues should put live music on and advertise a 15 min cigarette break inbetween sets or bands. I actually witnessed a quite well known band headlining a gig the other week who did about 6 songs then asked the audience if they wanted a fag break. The entire audience and band went for the break, then they got on with the job not bothering to stop for an encore, just played that too without a break then finished. Marvelous. Thats one solution right there for live music venues at least.
The trouble is that not many people are looking for solutions, just moaning their sorry lot that they "aint got nuffin to do, aint got nowhere to go". Well, I have put on music nights with both live bands and djs and people now use the "but i cant smoke inside" excuse, not to go. Its a no win situation caused by the rising tide of apathy that pollutes Thanet.
The cultural shift has already happened its just that people havent got used to it yet or more likely dont want to get used to it and would rather moan about it and do sod all to change the situation.

The shift has also come about due to the rise in price of various foods and other commodities like petrol (and even cetain metals have broken price records), which has a knock on effect across the board. people who have been using the same shops because their slightly cheaper are finding that even though the shop may remain cheaper than others, the prices are still going up or the food portions are getting smaller. how can people afford to go out when they can only just afford to keep themselves fed and healthy?

and what about those that have had debts even before the credit crunch started? i make it no secret that i have outstanding debts, and i've slowly been reducing them over time, but recently its like they've reared up again and bitten me hard. i went from being able to spend £10 - £20 on a night out at the weekend to struggling to buy a packet of tobacco to get me through the week.

I'm trying to think of ways round these many barriers to enjoying a social life, but even after reducing the amounts i pay back each month i'm left in the red with the bank.
I strongly agree that it's going to take something out of the ordinary to break this cycle for alot of people, some people i know are even working 3 jobs to try and keep afloat in the current economic crisis, and the sooner someone gets a flash of inspiration and starts organising the better!

*goes away and prays to the gods of inspiration and invention*

I live in Brighton but am a regular visitor to Ramsgate, since the smoking ban I have ended up more often than not, drinking around a mates house rather than going out, simply coz I can smoke inside and the drinks cheaper, but also many places have lost much of what I enjoyed.

In brighton, with the 24hr drinking and then the smoking ban I have noticed an increase in street drinking (even though this is illegal in the town centre).

The only clubs/pubs that seem to be surviving is the big corperations who have lower supply costs and can therefore suvive the drop in custom. Independent pubs/clubs are becoming very scarse and once they're all gone only the big boys will be left.

People blame 24hr drinking for the trouble on the streets, people wouldn't be on the streets if they knew they could relax in a pub/club with a drink and smoke instead of woundering the streets in groups with a can/bottle of drink causing agro.

Just to finish, this country is rapidly going down the panhole because of political correctness and human rights gone mad, laws are introduced to appease the PC/HR crowd without though and end up screwing us all in the end.

Some very interesting points being raised here. Normally I would think of a good reply to show appreciation but perhaps an interesting idea might do.

Imagine: a pub where the bar was under a shelter but the whole remainder was effectively a heated patio garden. In the autumn there are regular bonfires in the evening and in the summer there are BBQs. Some parts of the area have "lean to" style shelters so that it is still fun when it rains. There is a raised area or bandstand and the gentle tinkle of a water feature (gotta have one). The whole is encased in high double panel acoustic fencing to hold in the sound and there are trees and bushes in front to further soak up the noise.

Would that not be a pub/club/venue that you could legally smoke in? Technically it's outside despite the sheltered areas.

Pending an announcement from Mr Thorley Frank's nightclub in Cliftonville could reopen so all hope is not lost.

Westwood Cross Nightclub !..... Thats not gonna happen. None of the big boys( for example Luminar leisure would ever risk opening a Nightclub up there)... We do not have the population in this area. It would have to be a minimum of a 2500 capacity and would not be viable.... I dont belive that Mr Thorley will open a bar especially a club on that complex as i have heard a rumour that he is against Westwood x and he belives the trade should be kept to the three towns.

Yes Franks is Re opening... Saturday 1st November.... There is a massive Advert on the back of an advertising board parked on the Margate road

whatever happens smoking in public isn#t going to come back to so people, and businesses have to adapt...

More focus needs to be with getting the corporate customers in to increase trade.

I can see your point on that one. The big event organisers bring a lot of trade to clubs but there is not a huge ammount of support that I am aware of.

The biggest issue with clubs these days is overpriced entry fees and rediculously overpriced bottle services.

They need to lower these prices to be fair for people that cant afford the costs.

In the current economic climate some rebalancing does seem called for.

The clubs need to offer better value. The competition is not just other clubs now, but Playstation, Xbox etc.

All offering better value for money.

Not so good for meeting girls though!